Marriage and Infidelity
Posted by hubman38 on June 28, 2009
I don’t recall ever publishing a post that intentional portrays another blogger negatively, so I suppose there is a first time for everything, though I’m not going to name the blogger or link to the post that inspired these thoughts.
Men and women cheat on their spouses, that is certainly no secret. Hell, I once cheated on Veronica, and she and I have had threesomes with 3 different women, all of whom are married. So admittedly this post is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
But what I don’t understand is why someone would enter into a marriage without ever intending to be faithful. If you PLAN on cheating on your spouse, do both of yourselves a favor and don’t get married!
I realize that with the passage of years, people change, desires wax and wane, whatever. There are all sorts of reasons why someone might choose to seek the pleasure of another without their spouses consent, and I don’t want this to read as a carte blanche condemnation of infidelity. [For the record, in my mind what Veronica and I do as swingers is not cheating. Consent= not cheating.] I’ll be even more of a hypocrite and state that given the opportunity, Veronica and I would happily see any of the married women we’ve played with again.
Wanna hear my justification? Two of them are in marriages that are headed to divorce court one of these days, marriage infidelity having nothing [or maybe just a little] to do with it. The third has made repeated attempts to confront the lack of sexual satisfaction in her marriage, to no avail. So she’s looking for satisfaction elsewhere. In short, each of these women TRIED to be faithful, for YEARS. This other blogger isn’t even trying.
If you believe that you’re incapable of monogamy, at least be honest with your spouse or future spouse and find a partner who feels the same way. Don’t deceive them into thinking that you’re going to theirs forever when you have no intention of ever doing so. That’s just wrong.
Come back tomorrow for the first installment of whatever I’m going to call my question and answer series. First up, a question from a reader who wished to remain anonymous about… infidelity and swinging.
angel said
hmm sounds vaguely familiar.. Well first off, you know how I feel about cheating, honestly it is something that truly has bothered me. I have worked to be honest in my marriage and through frustration, I have found myself to be exactly what I did not want.. an unfaithful spouse. I have begged, pleaded, cried and prayed for things to change.
In the beginning, I never had any intention of being unfaithful.. would have never dreamed of it.. but, through heartache and pain, I found myself doing things that I swore I never would.. cheating.. talking to other men, getting emotional fulfillment from anyone other than my spouse.
Does this make me a horrible person? Probably. But, for whatever reason, right or wrong it has enabled me to live somewhat sanely.. until recently. We all have needs and will go about meeting those needs, however possible.. I am not trying to justify my actions, only give my reasons..
Very thought provoking post, Hubman.
Athena said
Thought provoking, indeed. I am still working on some of the basics of monogamy and infidelity — like accepting your spouse’s inherent sexuality and understanding the part both partners play in the action of “cheating.” And hoping that it never comes to that for me and Zeus
rage said
I loved this post. I agree with you. If you’re not going to be faithful to your spouse then don’t get married.
Just Me... said
Completely agree.. If you marry knowing that you will still be sampling from the buffet, then you might as well not get married.. But, being in a not-so-unique situation, I cannot condem someone who is headed for divorce and finds enjoyment in the company of another person. The worst situation? Finding someone you care for after you decide to divorce but before you’re divorced.. It sucks..
Petal said
Interesting….. I can’t quite understand the mentality of someone who enters a marriage with the intent of faithlessness, seems like a very stupid thing to do unless you have the consent of your future partner in which case its not cheating then. Always enjoy reading your take on life etc…
Greg said
My wife and I married with the agreement we could both have sex with other people after our marriage. We had both felt slighted in our past relationships and didn’t want to get stuck in a passionless marriage again. Soon after our wedding we joined a swinger’s club in our area. Big mistake on my part. Why? Several reasons. Number one, my wife could find guys on a daily basis to have sex with, and even with her help in making me profiles and trying to make me marketable, we have tried for a year and haven’t found one woman interested in having sex with me. Within three weeks of our marriage my wife had sex with a guy she found on Yahoo. Several weeks later she had sex twice in a three-day period with the man next door. Another big problem with joining a swinger group, as far as from a man’s perspective: Most of the women advertise themselves as being bisexual. Often we see women go to swinger parties with their husbands, and soon after they arrive, the wives are off playing with other women, while their husbands are left all alone. So a word to the wise: If you are a man, you are going to quickly be left very far behind when you become a swinging couple. Then when your wife realizes how much more marketable she is than you are, since she is being pursued by bisexual women (even if your wife isn’t bisexual) and also other men, she will soon realize her need for you is limited. Then the husbands have no bargaining power, because they don’t have anything sexually to offer their wives. Yes, soon this marriage will be over, and hard lessons learned. I will just warn the men: You may love sex and want a lot of extra excitement, but it is a huge Pandaora’s box, with a lot of supposed promise, but very little delivery.
Emma said
I agree. I think that if you know that you’re not going to be faithful, you don’t stand up and take the vows and promise the other person that you will.
I’m not sure why some people don’t understand it.
Dana said
But … but …
Let me first say that I often have problems with infidelity bloggers (generally). Not because I’m being judgmental (some day I’ll do a post – or 2 or 3 – on my own infidelity issues), but because what I so often see/read are the sexual details of the infidelities. In other words, the GOOD side. In my experience, seldom are infidelity bloggers upfront in acknowledging the BAD side of infidelity – the lives it can crush. If I read one more time, “If I weren’t his mistress someone else would be” as a justification … well … I don’t know what, but it bugs me *grin*
Now, in a perfect world, partners would GET DIVORCED before exploring other sexual outlets, or have the decency and respect for the person they are with to tell them they will explore sexual gratification outside of the marriage. Kinda of poo-poos your justification, but seriously, the potential damage is just too high a price to pay (IMHO).
I see no difference in someone entering a marriage with no intention of being monogamous, or someone who decides to seek sexual gratification outside of the marriage at a later date. It’s deceitful, dishonest and a whole bunch of other “negative” adjectives no matter when it takes place.
Dharma said
I don’t think I understand the idea of getting married and having the actual intent to cheat in mind as one makes the choice to get married.
However, I’ve just finished reading a book called “Mating In Captivity” by Esther Perel and one of the things she discusses, spends a whole chapter on — in fact, is the concept of monogamy, fildelity, the “third person” in a couple and how a flip of perspective can make a seemingly-horrible, terrible, no-good, very bad thing not quite so terrible, perhaps even helpful for a couple.
I intend to write about the book soon, so I won’t bore you here with quotes and her philosophies, but I really appreciated her commentary, especially with regards to how to honor your own sexuality in a long-term commitment, the importance of fantasies and how monogamy no longer serves the purpose it was designed for…
That said, I don’t know the blogger you’re referring to; the story doesn’t sound familiar. I can tell you that I had no intention of being unfaithful to my husband when I got married. But as our marriage was clearly approaching the point of no return, my first true love/childhood sweetheart and I discovered that we had serious feelings for each other. It’s different from having an affair for the sake of having a fling with some wild, exciting new lover, but it’s still, technically, infidelity, especially considering that I didn’t tell my husband that I wanted a divorce until after Greg and I had determined that we were going to be together.
I don’t know…rambling. Tired. Will stop clogging up your comments…LOL…
hubman38 said
Angel- I disagree with the notion that it makes you a “horrible person”. I sympathize with someone like you who has found themselves in the situation you’re in. My scorn is aimed towards the person who never intended to attempt to be faithful. Thanks for your comments.
Athena- great point about both partners playing a role in the cheating. I agree, most of the time, though in the case I’m obliquely referring to, I don’t think she has a clue. She is who she is, and even though she apparently doesn’t satisfy all of his needs, he married her anyway.
Rage- my point exactly! Thanks for commenting
Just Me- I can understand your frustration with your situation, but what I think would be worse is falling for someone else BEFORE you decide to get divorced, not after
Petal- I don’t understand either. Thanks for the compliment
Emma- like I said to Petal…
Dana- Of course most infidelity bloggers don’t write about the negative side, who’d want to read that? [That's just me being pragmatic...] Unfortunately, it’s not a perfect world. My distinction between people who cheat later on during their marriage and right away is intent. This individual stood up and took a marriage vow, fully intending NOT to honor that vow. Others, including the women that Veronica and I know, struggled greatly with their decisions and stayed faithful for many, many years and DID intend to honor their vows. There IS a difference, IMHO.
Decency and respect during a divorce? What color is the sky in your world?
Dana said
You and I will never agree on this because in order for that to happen, you’d have to admit that your justification for including married women in your sex life is flawed, and I just don’t see that happening *wink*
As far as intent, you’ve got to be kidding me. So if I took my vowed INTENDING to be faithful, but then cheated at a later date, that is somehow less destructive – less reprehensible – than if I INTENDED to be unfaithful from the start? Either way the vows are compromised. Either way trust is compromised. Ahhh … but if we looked at them as the “same”, you’d have to lump yourself in with the blogger you had such a bad reaction to and that might be a tough pill to swallow.
I often find that I have the STRONGEST reactions to the writings of people who make me question my own flaws. Just a thought.
hubman38 said
Dana, my rationale is flawed, in your opinion. I’m perfectly comfortable with my rationale, whether you agree or not.
Why do I have to be kidding you? Yes, either way vows are compromised, but yes, I do find it MORE reprehensible to never intend on being faithful to ones spouse in the first place. Consider the woman who has been married for a number of years and finds herself drifting apart from her husband, marriage crumbling, and seeks physical and/or emotional intimacy elsewhere. Do I judge this person less harshly than the individual who planned on cheating from day one? Damn right!
I do lump myself in with this other blogger- I’ve cheated on Veronica. The biggest difference is that I got caught and confessed to everything, which in turn led to a dialogue that resulted in Veronica and I being where we are now. Like it or not, the intent I had, or lack thereof, is actually what helped Veronica forgive me and for our marriage to emerge stronger than ever.
hubman38 said
Dharma- damn, you snuck in your comment while I was replying to the others!
Thanks for your thoughts and sharing some details of your circumstance. Veronica told me she read that book, but it was from the library, so I’ll have to find it again. Not sure how I missed it when it was in the house.
Vixen said
I have to agree. It’s one thing for infidelity to ‘happen’ down the line. For me it’s all about intent. As you pointed out.
If you get married, or enter ANY relationship with the *intent* to be unfaithful….what is the point?! What kind of relationship are you hoping to have???? To leave the starting gate with that as the plan…..it’s a dismal path ahead.
I do see the difference when it happens years down the line. I’m not really agreeing with it being more ok, or ok at all. I just see a difference.
Interesting post.
13messages said
Thanks to a certain governor, infidelity has been a major topic in most of my conversations today. I’m with you on the intent side of it. It makes no sense to me.
ms.inconspicuous said
Well, golly, maybe because people don’t necessarily define marriage the same way? While some seek marriage as a guarantee of sexual fidelity, some may seek it as a partnership, others a financial security, others as a safe place to raise children, others as an escape.
Just because you seek one thing in your marriage (although in your case, it ain’t fidelity
), doesn’t mean that others seek the same thing. The whole premise that it’s wrong to get married if one intends to cheat assumes that marriage is primarily for sexual fidelity and takes emphasis off of the myriad of other components.
Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t one who started out with the intent to have affairs–but I don’t think that it’s unusual or “wrong” to be one who does.
After all, most people in the conventional world wouldn’t think that swinging has its place in a healthy marriage now, would they?
hubman38 said
Vixen- thanks for your comments, it seems like we agree on all points
13messages- you know the saddest part? The certain governor isn’t the only cheating politician in the news lately and I had to stop to think about who you were referring too!
Ms. Inconspicuous- well hello young lady! Nice to see you again. Are you saying that it’s okay to define marriage where infidelity is acceptable? As you point out, there are a number of reasons why people get married, but that doesn’t excuse the person who stands up, says the wedding vows, and from day one lying, deceiving his spouse into believing he means those words.
Where do you get the idea that I don’t seek fidelity in my marriage? Veronica and I were married for 15 yrs before we got into swinging, and I still argue that because everything we do is done together that we’re faithful. Consent= not cheating.
How does the opinion that most people don’t view swinging as something healthy have anything to do with this? What Veronica and I do is based on mutual trust and respect- infidelity is dishonest and deceitful.
You don’t think if “wrong” to start a marriage with the intent of having an affair? That’s just sad.
ms.inconspicuous said
but that doesn’t excuse the person who stands up, says the wedding vows, and from day one lying, deceiving his spouse into believing he means those words.
What vows? Not everyone says the same vows.
Veronica and I were married for 15 yrs before we got into swinging, and I still argue that because everything we do is done together that we’re faithful. Consent= not cheating.
Just because you’re not cheating doesn’t mean that you’re faithful. You’re faithful in spirit of course, but I don’t think the loosest court in the land would say that you’re faithful in body by traditional definitions. I mean, as I’ve said before, you’re also adulterers. Not cheaters, but adulterers. As long as you’re going to define marriage by the traditional labels, you’re going to have to eat a few yourself.
You don’t think if “wrong” to start a marriage with the intent of having an affair? That’s just sad.
I don’t like to judge other people’s marriages. I’ve learned–in my short time on this life (and in my 7 years being friends with and in and out of a swinging community) that there is a lot more going on behind closed doors than any of us sees. To say that something is wrong in a marriage is entirely within the discretion of two people alone–the two in the marriage.
ms.inconspicuous said
Missed one:
How does the opinion that most people don’t view swinging as something healthy have anything to do with this? What Veronica and I do is based on mutual trust and respect- infidelity is dishonest and deceitful.
The point is–your marriage is not conventional–so perhaps you should expand your view on acceptable or conventional marriage.
April said
I understand what you’re trying to say, Ms. Inconspicuous. I also understand what Hubman’s saying as well. And I think what this comes down to is if 2 people are getting married and one person thinks they’re going into a monogamous marriage while the other person is thinking they’re going to have extramarital affairs, then the other person is being deceitful from the beginning. Therefore the question is posed, “Why get married to begin with?”
What you’re saying is that there are many definitions to marriage and some people are getting married for different reasons. This is true too. However, you would think that both people entering a marriage for whatever reason, would know the terms of their marriage to begin with. Both people should be on the same page as to why they’re getting married. If one person thinks it’s because they’re going to spend the rest of their life with the other person, for better or worse, in sickness and in health, faithfully, ’til death do us part and the other person is thinking I need financial stability and want to fuck around…..well that’s not really the same page and certainly isn’t fair to the person being deceived, now is it?
You wrote: “The whole premise that it’s wrong to get married if one intends to cheat assumes that marriage is primarily for sexual fidelity.” Are you kidding me? I don’t think many people go into a marriage solely for the sexual fidelity and this whole sentence just doesn’t make any sense what so ever. And for you to not think that someone should know that the person they’re marrying intends to not be faithful, well that’s just absurd.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a majority (not all) of marriages are entered for the primary reason of love and compatibility. I think it’s completely safe to assume that, unless otherwise discussed before hand, those marriages are entered with fidelity as part of it, not the primary reason for it.
The bottom line here is that it appears the blogger Hubman is speaking of plans on cheating on her future husband without his knowledge; he believes she’s going to be a faithful wife. Regardless of how anyone defines marriage, that’s just deceitful and wrong.
ms.inconspicuous said
Then, April, the question should not be, “Why get married in the first place,” but, rather, “Why not tell your spouse your intent?”
It becomes an issue of communication instead of institution.
April said
I don’t believe anyone, but you, made the institution of marriage the issue. The whole post was about the people in/going into the marriage being unfaithful before or after they were married. You chimed in that maybe people don’t define marriage the same way. Not trying to argue, just making an observation.
hubman38 said
Ms I- what vows? No, not everyone says the “same” vows, but aside from the fundamentalist Mormons [who claim to no longer permit polygamy anyway], show me vows that don’t include some sort of promise of fidelity?
Why not tell your spouse, indeed. Took you long enough to get around to doing that.
I realize fully that my marriage is not conventional. Are you trying to make the argument that lying to one’s spouse, from day one of the marriage, is okay, that a situation like that should be included in an expanded definition? That’s asinine.
With your last comment, you finally got the point. It’s about communication. If someone can’t be faithful, either from day one or after some period of time, they should be honest and communicate that with their partner.
April- thank you for all of your comments. I appreciate them, as well as the dialogue between you and Ms. I.
ms.inconspicuous said
show me vows that don’t include some sort of promise of fidelity?
Mine didn’t. Not purposefully, of course. Nor did my husband’s to me.
Nor have any of the vows in the 3 weddings I’ve attended this month. Writing one’s own vows is a trend now, as is a justice of the peace. I haven’t heard, “forsake all others” in many years.
Why not tell your spouse, indeed. Took you long enough to get around to doing that.
Ha. No need to be a dick about it, honey. You don’t know the half of it. I’m bringing up your situation as a comparison point for what is a “non-traditional” marriage structure by definition–not attacking it. So I’d appreciate it if you’d lay off the attitude there.
I realize fully that my marriage is not conventional. Are you trying to make the argument that lying to one’s spouse, from day one of the marriage, is okay, that a situation like that should be included in an expanded definition? That’s asinine.
No, I’m trying to say you’re on an absolutely slippery slope. Both situations are condemnable in the traditional sense (though most would agree that yours is morally “okay” and the other is not…but then again, some would condemn you just as much, and I’ve seen that too.)
Once you start saying, “This is okay, but this isn’t,”–where does that stop? It’s okay to cheat, but it’s not okay to start out cheating, it’s okay to fuck around, but only if your partner knows, it’s okay to swing, but only in the same room… [For the record, I'm not passing judgment on any of these--I personally thing some are right and some are wrong, but I bring them up as examples only. Not as a blanket "wrongness" or "acceptability".]
Extrapolate it to other judgmental situations in life–hey, I may be black, but at least I’m not gay…I may be gay, but at least I’m not a liberal, I may be a liberal, but at least I’m not….good god, it’s a slippery slope.
I do think it’s an issue of communication–not of the institute of marriage. Which is why I say that the question should be, “Why not tell one’s spouse,” instead of, “Why get married.” But you seem offended by the violation of the institute of marriage…when the institution in and of itself is flexible.
What you don’t seem to get at all is that my argument is not a moral one–but, rather, a semantic one.
hubman38 said
Well, I guess I stand corrected about vows and fidelity.
I’m not surprised that someone decided to call me a name, I’m just surprised it was you. I don’t see it as a slippery slope, which implies that permitting one thing will inevitably lead to something else, which will lead to something else. I think we can agree that there is a continuum of what people consider “open relationships”- Veronica and I are at a place on that continuum that works for us. You have your comfortable spot. But you completely lose me with the black, gay, liberal analogy.
I think the original point of my post was lost along the way- here is a man who from day one had no intention of being honest with his wife. He was going to cheat on her right away. That is wrong- my opinion, nothing else. He’s straight up lying to her and there is no defense for that.
ms.inconspicuous said
It was really more of a warning than name calling.
Or are you telling me that, “Why not tell your spouse, indeed. Took you long enough to get around to doing that.”
Was not supposed to be construed as a personal attack on my decisions, or, at the very least, an incredibly condescending judgment?
Because if I am mistaken, I’m more than happy to rescind the warning about treading into “dick” territory.
Britni (VadgeWig) said
I’m late to this conversation here, as I’ve been absent from blogs, but I do want to add this: When reading your post, I would have made the exact same comments that Ms. I made, and had the same thoughts while reading.
You say:
I think the original point of my post was lost along the way- here is a man who from day one had no intention of being honest with his wife. He was going to cheat on her right away. That is wrong- my opinion, nothing else. He’s straight up lying to her and there is no defense for that.
Yes. I agree. And I think that Ms. I agrees with it, too, which is what she was saying. But to me, the crime isn’t in intending to cheat on his wife. The crime is in not telling his wife upfront that he did not plan on being faithful. But I think that some of your earlier comments did not word it this way, which is all Ms. I was trying to say. Your earlier comments made it seem like the wrongness lay in his lack of intent at sexual fidelity, but as Ms I pointed out, that isn’t a component in all marriages. People can enter into trusting, loving marriages without ever intending to be faithful and monogamous, because that isn’t a component of their partnership.
I can tell you, for a fact, that if I ever get married, there will be no statement of fidelity in my vows. For me, personally, it’s an unrealistic expectation to place on anyone. However, I won’t promise my future partner that there will be sexual fidelity because it’s not something that I have any plan on adhering to. And my partner will feel the same way. Because if they don’t, there’s no way that marriage will work.
So, I’m agreeing with that it was the lack of honesty that was the problem and not the intent to be non-monogamous with his wife, but also with Ms. I that some of your previous comments were worded in a way that could have been easily misconstrued.
ms.inconspicuous said
It’s not really a continuum of things permitted that lead to something else. It is, rather a continuum of judgment. It’s about saying, “This is a wrong thing,” while participating in something that others would easily say is, “A wrong thing.” Therein lies the slippery slope of finger pointing.
hubman38 said
Since you privately indicated your desire not to engage in further debate on the matter, I’ll refrain from replying.
Except to say that yes, I guess I was being a bit of a dick with that comment.
April said
So I just learned how to express my dog’s anal glands. What did you guys do that was exciting tonight?
Just trying to change the subject.