Adultery
Posted by hubman38 on February 15, 2009
Until recently, I’ve always been very judgmental of anyone who cheated on their spouse.
And then I did just that. Cheated.
To quickly revisit it [bear with me, this isn't just a re-hashing of old stories...], Veronica was my first and only lover for the first 38 1/2 years of my life. Yes, I was a 20 yr old virgin when we met. But I was curious, so I did something to satisfy that curiosity.
Remember all the brouhaha last year when the governor of New York, Eliot Spitzer, got busted using an escort? Being a curious type of guy, and hearing news reports about how prevalent working girls are, I thought “Is it really that easy to find a girl for sex?” So I pointed my trusted web-browser to Craigslist and starting reading the Erotic Services ads, some of which referenced “highly rated on TER”. TER turned out to be The Erotic Review, which is basically a searchable database of girls for hire, complete with reviews from past clients, services provided, and the recommended “donation” for the girl. After browsing ads for a few weeks, I decided, for reasons I still can’t wrap my brain around, to contact a girl.
And then I got caught. 1 encounter, 1 girl, and Veronica busted me. My dumb ass forgot that she had access to the e-mail account I used to contact the girl. [Stop rolling your eyes, Riff Dog!]
As we recounted here, this whole incident led to a lot of honest, frank discussions between us.
Veronica had long been interested in being with a woman, and of course a 3some is every man’s fantasy, right? So I was fully supportive of her desire to explore this side of her sexuality.
Ironically, as she was contacting and being contacted by ladies on Craigslist and AFF, one of the things I was against was getting involved with a married woman. It would be one thing for her to play with a woman who like Veronica had her husbands blessing to do so. But, I argued, I hurt her, terribly so, when I cheated on her. So we should not put another woman in the position where she is cheating on her husband, right?
It was around this time that Veronica really got involved with her blog and reading other blogs. And I got into it as well, commenting here and there and really enjoying all that the blogosphere has to offer. Ironically, we found ourselves reading a number of “infidelity” blogs. Then Veronica and I had the chance to meet our very first blogger friend last summer. I wish I could tell you more about her, but she is very protective of her identity. We never wrote about her, or she us, so don’t even ask us to disclose who she is. But I will say that she was and still is an infidelity blogger, and ridiculously good looking. You’re damn right I harbored fantasies about her. And still do *wink*
In the course of one of our discussions about the marital status of a woman who *might* choose to join us in bed, Veronica asked “What if so-and-so invites us to her room when we meet her? Would you want to have sex with her?”
[Not that this was likely at all, she just posed it to me as a hypothetical question...]
Of course! was my immediate, unwavering reply. Even after Veronica pointed out my contradictory feelings, I did not change my mind.
Ah yes, Hubman the hypocrite. It’s only going to get better folks…
You see, I no longer care about the marital status of any woman that might join Veronica and I in the bedroom. Why the change of heart? It was a long, drawn out process, entailing many more discussions with Veronica about the moral considerations of my possibly fucking another man’s wife without his knowledge.
OK, not really…
The bottom line for us is “Hey, she’s gonna cheat anyway, it might as well be with us!!”
Shallow, I know.
And I don’t care.
Sarah, beautiful, curvy, statuesque, busty, sexy, exciting Sarah, is married. Not only that, but shortly after Veronica and Sarah had their first nekkid fun together, we all went out together, socially. Veronica and I met Sarah and her husband for drinks and fun at an area strip club. And we all had a good time. I like her husband, he’s a nice guy.
But you know what? I still don’t care. She’s going to cheat on him anyway and there is a built-in alibi of sorts because he thinks she is just with Veronica. So the 3 of us are having fun together.
And then there is Southern Vixen. Go check out her blog if you don’t already know her story.
Again, the same thing. She is going to do her own thing anyway, Veronica and I had already developed a wonderful friendship with her and there was mutual desire among the three of us. So why the hell not?
But we do have standards, believe it or not…
What both of these women have in common are sexually unsatisfying or sexless marriages. We wouldn’t be comfortable playing with a married woman who has a good sex life at home. If that was the case, what is she doing looking for others? [Remember, I'm talking about cheating, not hotwifing, that's different]
I would never play with Sarah in her own house, especially in the bed she shares with her husband. That is just plain wrong to me and I won’t do that.
What about an “open marriage” or “hotwifing”? While I realize that is something that works well for others, and I enjoy reading others adventures [Yes, Surburban HotWife, I'm talking about you!], it’s something I just don’t understand. I’m going to stay home and take care of the kids while Veronica goes out on a date? Or the other way around? Hah, not likely! Playing with other partners is something that we do together.
But, here comes Hubman the hypocrite again…
In early December I was traveling for work and visited SwingerWife, since I was in her area all week. While she and I did not play that night, Veronica had given me the freedom to do so, and SwingerWife knew that. And if my work ever takes me to Southern Vixen’s area again [which is a distinct possibility] I hope that Veronica again gives me that freedom.
————————————————————————————————————————————————–
Ok, dear readers, don’t be shy.
Do you understand our feelings on the matter?
Or do you think we’re amoral sluts and karma is gonna bite us on the ass something fierce someday?
[Bracing myself for the inevitable comments...]
Southern Vixen said
I understand your feelings. Yes you are sluts. Not amoral ones…just sluts. Karma is gonna bite us for worse than this…
but I’m one to talk! I’m perfect! Right? No. Really. I am. Right? (snicker)
And I’ll be your slut any time, darling!
Of course you’re perfect *wink*
BedsideTalesMan said
I do understand.. That has been a topic around here and without saying too much…after LONG conversations, we’ve decided not to go look for anything…but if we are out and the situation is right…why not.
There are too many ways for it to hurt our relationship…let alone others’…but 3somes (that work) are everyone’s dream…right?
3somes are a dream, which is why we’re brushing aside the fact that a lover of ours is married. This 3some does work, but if we ever feel that our involvement with Sarah is increasing the drama in her married life, we would be inclined to cease the relationship.
Dana said
I think … hmmm … I think this is a very selfish perspective. I read a lot of justification – “She’s going to cheat anyway, why not with us?” Well, I would ask, “Why with you?” Why do you need to contribute to an already bad situation, muddying the waters? Because you are selfish when it comes to your needs. This isn’t about what’s best for the one you are cheating with, it’s about what is best for you (and Veronica). Like it or not, you contribute to the problem – but then I read a lot of “I don’t care”‘s too.
And before anyone starts spewing venom, this isn’t judgment speaking – it’s experience. Infidelity is an extremely selfish act. Calling it anything else is just putting expensive perfume on a skunk.
Yes, it is selfish, I’ll freely admit that. Perhaps one day we’ll reconsider our choices. But I disagree with the notion that we contribute to the problem. The marital problems are there with or without us. Are we making them worse? Maybe, but that’s not for us to say. And remember, I’ve been unfaithful myself, so I’m speaking from experience as well.
Lisa Williams said
So how much of this is about coming out in a consistent place about sexual freedom?
A little aside here. I was reading Into Temptation, a relatively new blog by a guy who’s writing a book about sex, and he made an interesting statement — that swingers are about as closeted as gays and lesbians were in the 70′s.
It’s a lot less controversial today than it was in, say 1950, to consider having a sexual relationship with a partner of the same gender. That’s considered a legitimate part of an individual’s freedom of expression by many, and by more people all the time.
You and Veronica have arrived at a different idea of sexual freedom than many people in our culture.
Lots of people color outside the lines for lots of different reasons — because of an interest in kink, because of their place on the gender spectrum, because they’re poly, or swingers…or in a bad marriage.
You don’t have to get very far outside the lines for the risk of, I dunno, public shaming, to go up. And for people like us who are outside them, we suddenly gotta start doing our own thinking. What a drag, no? For everybody else, there’s Dr. Phil and Emily Post, right?
Just to share from my personal coloring book, I sort sexual freedoms this way:
1. Do I think there is an inherent right to do something here?
2. Does the exercise of my rights interfere with the exercise of someone else’s rights to make their own choices? Do I think others have the same right?
3. How much risk am I putting myself or others at when I’m exercising this risk?
So, there’s a bunch of statements about sexual freedoms here. So, you and Veronica share plenty of ideas about sexual freedom, one of which being that you think it’s okay for consenting adults in couples to play together. That works for you, I’m guessing, on all three levels — you don’t believe it’s wrong, it’s mutual (you doing something doesn’t mean Veronica can’t), and given privacy, you don’t think you’re taking risks that are too “out there” for you or your family.
There’s two more here, though. One would be, “I have a right to play with other partners so long as my primary partner knows and consents.” But it sounds like maybe it’s a little uncomfortable around #2, mutuality; maybe worth some thought. One of the big messages middle class couples get is that marriages are supposed to be mutual — except, in practice, they never are, are they? Probably how successful a couple is depends in large part on how they work out the areas where they aren’t equal.
The third statement reads to me like it’s about someone else’s rights. That is, “Does a person in an unhappy or sexless marriage have the right to seek satisfaction elsewhere, even if their spouse doesn’t know?” That is, is there a sympathy case to be made? Hm. Even if we kicked the can on looking at it via #1, and #2, maybe it would get sticky around #3, risk.
You’re doing your thinking about sexual freedoms in public. Have I mentioned I think that’s awesome? Well, I do think you and Veronica are pretty awesome, so thanks.
Wow, you’ve given me quite a bit to think about! First of all, thanks for the compliment!
Hmm, is our relationship a sympathy case? No, and I think to put it in such terms would be demeaning to Sarah, implying that we’re doing her some kind of favor. I like how you view sexual freedoms, based on the 3 questions you pose. You’ve though about this quite a bit before, haven’t you? I’ll have to swing by your blog and “Into Temptation” as well.
Emmy said
For me it is not about moral or amoral – it is a question of drama and inviting it into your life. You are right, the marital problems are theirs not yours. But don’t you worry about inviting it into your lives?
I have unwittingly invited drama into our lives before – and it screwed with our marriage for a while. I guess, for me, I no longer want to even go near anything that could become drama nor will I ever invite it into our bed.
I agree with wanting to avoid drama. In the case of Southern Vixen, her husband knows what she’s doing. Sarah’s husband thinks she is just with Veronica. So the chances of drama are low. Believe me, we don’t want drama, though I will admit that we might be inviting it.
Dana said
So, if you don’t see it making the marriage problems worse – and why/how would you – it’s justified? See, I really don’t get that. I harbor no ill-will toward you or Veronica for your lifestyle choices, but there are people involved here that do not have a choice. That is where I take issue. Should it matter to you? That’s not my call, but to pretend that all is well and that your choices/actions have no impact on that other relationship? That’s just silly.
Hey, I acknowledge that we might be contributing to our partners marital problems! And if we get the sense that our involvement with her really IS becoming a problem, we’ll re-evaluate the relationship. Where did I say that all is well?
And we know you harbor no ill will! This is exactly the type of dialogue I wanted to stimulate. I’m not perfect, nor do I claim to be.
Suburban Hotwife said
Hubman,
How did I know that you were leading up to me the second I saw the use of the term ‘hotwifing’? (BTW, sorry to all those that clicked the link only to find one post that does not include a single mention of sex. It is a temporary situation.)
Hotwifing is a fetish of sorts, I guess. As fetishes go, not everyone ‘gets’ the sexual stimulation derived from from atypical situations and behaviors. Personally, I do not get shoe and/or foot fetishes, but it floats many a boat for many people. Just watch a typical porno, and the female star will shed what little clothing she was wearing and keep her shoes on while fucking. Why? because there must be thousands of people out there that are excited by the vision of a naked woman in heels, but I just don’t get it.
I have a question for you: I know you enjoy watching your wife play with another woman, but do you derive the same pleasure from watching her get fucked by another man? I know you are enjoying the experience together, but do you watch, and do you like it?
I am not sure where I am going this this train of thought, other than one thing I have learned from this blogosphere is, to each his/her own. I try not to judge, but to enjoy the tales told by people like you and Veronica.
I do enjoy watching her with another man, though not as much as watching her with another woman. And yes, I do watch. There are some very explicit pictures I took of her with SwingerHusband! It was very hot to be with SwingerWife, having her thighs wrapped around me, and at the same time be able to watch our spouses enjoying each other. That is part of swinging, to us. And for that reason, that is part of the reason why we prefer same-room as opposed to separate room swaps.
ms.inconspicuous said
When I was a single gal, I met a married man for coffee. I didn’t know he was married at the time, and upon finding out, I huffed and puffed and quickly kicked him away.
Then I came to a similar conclusion. If not with me, then with someone else. (Though that man never did get another chance, there was another married man that I welcomed into my single bed.)
There will be dozens that will not be with an infidel, and dozens that will. It all comes down to whether you want to be with *that* person or not, because you not sleeping with them is surely not setting them on the path to a moral and faithful life.
I was wondering if you were going to comment, as I figured that you might feel the same way. I was right!
And it does come down to wanting to be with “that” person.
Lisa Williams said
Hubman, oops, wrote that unclearly; the sympathy is for the person who is in an unhappy marriage, not you and V. That is, is there a case for sympathy towards such a person even though the ahem! form of the sympathy might not pass muster on other grounds.
I thought you meant that Veronica and I were playing with Sarah out of sympathy. We enjoy being with her for other reasons
Lisa Williams said
(Oh, and to me, being in a tough situation and having others recognize it doesn’t belittle anybody. Sorry if that came across that way).
It didn’t come across that way to me, but thanks for clarifying.
Jobthingy said
some will read it as selfish. others will not. it really depends on who they are and where their boundaries stand.
i personally dont care what you do cause its you.
we play as a couple and neither of us would have it any other way.
but.. thats us
the lifestyle is filled with double standards when you really sit back and look at it all. but.. meh… it really comes down to the taco. and i likes me the taco *snickers*
We mostly only play as a couple as well. Though Veronica has the freedom to play with a woman by herself, which is how she and Sarah got started, by the way.
“taco”? I haven’t heard that term in ages!
southerngirl said
I am in no position ot judge others for their sexuality choices. I am recognizing that some of us are extremely sexual people while others just aren’t. Moreso, how the two of you make this lifestyle ‘work’ fills me with wonder.
Us making it work, is that a comment of admiration (“That’s so cool”) or wonder (How the heck do they do that?”). Just curious…
spankingbarbie said
After putting up with a slacker and not having sex for 10+ years…I became one of those cheating wives. Oh well.
10+ yrs? Wow… Sorry to hear that.
Jen said
I am not in a position to judge you for what you do. I’ve been the cheating wife and I’ve been cheated on. It hurts either way…alot. If you and Veronica are both in agreement then what is there left to say. If it makes you happy to do what you do, then that’s great. Just remember, if it is a married woman, there is always a husband and possibly children involved as well and it will hurt them more than you will ever know.
And we know the husband (we met him once). Which is why we are sensitive to causing problems and would back off if we ever thought that things were going to a place where he would get hurt. Assuming, of course, that we could see it coming.
Vixen said
I’m not in the business of judging other people and their situations.
I have always loved how *angry* people become at the person their s/o cheated on them with. Sometimes even *MORE* so than the person directly involved with them- THE SIGNIFICANT OTHER. It blows my mind.
Where I’m going with this is that I do agree with you for the most part. The only reason I would give, personally, for not getting involved with someone who is married (and their s/o hasn’t given them permission) is the drama. I don’t do drama. AT. ALL.
Your honesty in acknowledging your hypocrisy is refreshing.
If nothing else, I do try to be honest on my blog. I am who I am, warts and all (so to speak- don’t actually have any… lol).
sadie said
Well, you say on one hand that you don’t have an open marriage, and that you and V play only “together”, yet, you’d hook up with Swingerwife or SoVix alone? That sounds pretty darn open, Hubman!
And, I used to rationalize the cheating spouse thing with “he’ll do it anyway” and “if not with me, with someone else”. But, now that I have realized I played a role (if a small one) in the demise of Trent’s marriage, I feel like shit about fucking around with someone who was married. But, that’s just me!
Good luck, and have fun
xo~Sadie
Good point about SW or SoVix, so let me explain. Those are women that Veronica is friends with as well, and has also had sex with. Plus, for me to see either of them, it would involve work-related travel, which is theoretically possible in the future. So for me to see either of them with Veronica would be an exception to the rule. Now consider Max and Irma, a local couple we’ve been involved with. We would never consider Veronica or I individually going over to their house for a 3some while the other stayed home. Nor would either of us go out on a date without the other. THAT is an open marriage, by our definition. Does that make sense?
edens_dragon said
Reading all of this great discussion makes me think we should have a broader discussion on morality…I’m guessing we would have strong Freudian bias.
I may sound like a broken record here, but I don’t believe one person can be everything to another person. First, its just impossible and two, I think it would be unhealthy even if it were.
My personal beliefs and the moral structure of my life allow me to live fairly guilt free. I definitively believe in the social construction of morality and therefor the mantra that you can’t please everyone.
blore said
Two thoughts:
1. Imagine (as a wild hypothesis) that Hubman suddenly discovered that he was bisexual. Would Veronica be comfortable watching him with another man? How about his going off separately with another man? Suppose the man were married and his wife didn’t know? Or suppose she knew about Hubman – would that make it OK for Veronica to have sex with the man?
The gender reversals don’t change anything.
2. Consider the logic of this sentence: That guy is going to die eventually anyway, so there’s nothing wrong with my murdering him.
What I’m suggesting is that, as with the Safe Sex post a while back, you have built some internally contradictory rationalisations to convince yourselves that there is a logical basis for doing what you feel right about doing and not doing what you don’t want to.
Whoa, how did we get from talking about cheating to murder? And what was contradictory to my Safe Sex post? There are risks we are willing to take, others we aren’t, and there are situational considerations as well. I fail to see your point.
There’s nothing wrong with that – we all do it all the time. It’s just nice to be aware that you’re doing it.
southerngirl said
A little of both I guess. It is interesting and are there ‘rules’ or boundaries discussed before hand? Like kissing for instance, is that off limits? Just curious….
You should visit my friend SwingerWife’s blog and read her post from last summer about rules. She and her husband, and Veronica and I, have VERY similar rules. Before ANY couple ventures into swinging, boundaries MUST be discussed and agreed upon. Otherwise, oh, the drama…
For us, kissing is not off limits, not at all. Just check out Southern Vixen’s HNT this coming Thursday. In general, the only absolute off limits is that Veronica’s ass is all mine. I’m the only one she’s ever had anal sex with, and it’s staying that way. And like all other boundaries, that is something we mutually agreed upon.
rockyroads said
No I dont like the idea. And the ” she would do it anyhow with someone else” is kinda lame. You both know how painful it is too find out to be cheated on, so why do this to someone else? There are so many unattached people running around on this planet or people that dont mind sharing their partner, why dont stick with them? You dont go in a store and when you have no money just steal something “because you want that and nothing else”?
I use always this thought when I have to make the decision if something is good or not: Would you like someone does this to your child? Would it be something you would congrate your child on? Your son telling” you just cheated with a married mother of 2 kids? Whoaaa way to go!” . Telling your daughter” your husband cheated? whats the problem? get over it!”
Again, what’s with readers trying to draw parallels with crime? First murder and now theft. I fail to see the analogies…
Interesting perspective, thinking of it from your kids perspective. Never thought of it that way. Thanks for sharing.
swingerwife said
Damn,Hubman…MUST you go all introspective on us?? Kidding, kidding. Quite honestly (and you already know I feel this way anyway) I could care less if someone is married or not, as I subscribe to the same belief which is “if not with me, then with someone else”. I apply that theory most liberally to any man who has a profile on A.M. in particular. So..why not me? (or SH for that matter, who has played on his own with someone in a relationship although she was not married)
Gee, I really do have the morals of an alley cat..don’t I??
*runs away to sign up for a basket-making class. Because if I’m going to hell in a handbasket, I’m going in STYLE, dammit!!
*
I say all of this to say that YES, you ARE sluts! And I fucking love you for it!!
As Veronica and I often kid each other, see you in hell, I’ll be waiting there for you! Glad to hear that we’ll be in good company!
As I’ve told you before, my dear, I’m just aspiring to the level of slut-hood that you’ve already attained
swingerwife said
P.S. Oh..and the next time you are in my neck of the woods?? Watch out…’cause you are ALL mine!!
Next time? What happened to last time? LOL. Just teasin’ you! I’ll keep that in mind!
Mike said
I like to live by the rules that if you have looked at the risk and decided to pursue it anyways just be prepared for the fallout. Not saying that there will always be fallout using a safe analogy (non crime related) is that Evil Knievel made many of his jumps thus no fallout. But he missed some with some major fallout as well. Personally it seems like you have looked at the risk with Sarah and decided it is worth it. Hopefully there will be no fallout or if so you and V can handle it.
There is a whole different subject about not looking at the risk and just acting on urges and such that I do not think that applies here.
Mike
Mary said
So, if you hadn’t both agreed to the swinging lifestyle, do you think your marriage would have survived?
Absolutely!!!!!! Swinging is nothing more than a little spice thrown into an already fantastic sex life. I guess that you did not pick up on the fact that I did what I did not because I wasn’t gettin’ any at home, rather, it would just plain old stupid curiousity about other women. If anything, the discussions we had over the course of last summer, after my indiscretion was exposed but before we started playing with others, made our marriage stronger than ever.
And if you’re wondering, both of us agree that if the other declares that we don’t want to swing any more, we will be perfectly happy living out the rest of our days in monogamous marital bliss.
KJ said
This was a thought provoking post. While I can see all sides of this discussion, I am sure “knowing” the two of you, that you put as much thought and discussion into Sarah as you do on all your decisions. The fact is, is that Sarah is a grown woman who can make choices. And if she had her mind set then she would do this one way or another. How nice for her that she is able to explore with such a loving and honest couple such as yourselves. I am sure like you, she put a tremendous amount of thought into her choices.
Yes, you are sluts!! Thank God for that! Skipping happily on my way to hell!
Wow, thank you very much for the compliment! And thanks also for recognizing both that Sarah is not a ‘victim’ and that Veronica and I did not start invite her into our bed impulsively.
Belle said
Hoooo, boy. Such a fun line of thought. Shad and I (Yes, it’s the Belle of Shad and gang over there who never talks. Really, it’s better than way; when I do, you can’t shut me up.) are/were? open. I say the were because it’s become more of a poly thing and etc and so forth, BUT…the point of this…We went into it with rules etc. And the initial rule when I was looking for my fun was he should be single. And then it was married might be okay if the wife knew. The Dom’s wife did not at the beginning of this. (She knows now, if you read along, she’s even involved to a degree.) And the conversation changed. He has went down this road before. (Yes, she knows he had.) To my mind…he WAS going to do this whether it was me or not me. I have pretty solid evidence it was going to happen. Yes, it may have played out differently. But he needed something he was not getting. I think part of this comes down to which is better…finding the additional needs where you can, or leaving the person who isn’t completing you.
Like I said, we have a poly slant here and kind of live by the “can one person be everything to another person for a lifetime?” train of thought. For us? Not completely. Some people do that fine. And more power to them. But it’s not us. And there are a lot of people in that same situation, and they’re going to live an unhappy life, or find that completion SOMEWHERE. I don’t think feeling that way reflects on our morality. Maybe our lovers choice not to have the conversation with their spouse about finding an arrangement to meet those needs reflects on theirs. I never held a gun to his head and said, “do this.” I was there and he knew my lifestyle.
This may be justification (hey, it works for me), but in someways I think those in our various lifestyles are better choices for this sort of thing. We’re NOT out to breakup a marriage. We’re cognizant of boundaries. We do care about the other people involved. Isn’t that more moral than someone who is trying to “steal a spouse” as it were?
(See, I told you I couldn’t shut up! *grins*)
Welcome! (Even if you couldn’t shut up
) Your final paragraph really sums it up well for us.